Despite all the things that confuse me, rub me the wrong way, seem pompous, in this essay, there are some things that I cannot help but agree with.
“In wit, as nature, what affects our hearts/is not th’ exactness of peculiar parts;/ ‘Tis not a lip, or eye, we beauty call,/ But the joint force and full result of all.” (243-247)
These lines are so true. For something to be truly beautiful all the parts need to be in harmony. Each individual part; word choice, topic, rhyme, rhythm, may each be pretty on its own, but you need that combination to make a masterpiece. It’s like hearing the perfect song. The instruments, the voices, the lyrics all just seem to mesh.
Could anyone else find any of these snippets in the essay? Snippets where Pope says something you can’t help but agree with or find truth in?
- adi-c Mar 3, 2008
Yeah, I definitely found some snippets that I agreed with, in spite of Pope's arrogant nature.
"And if the means be just, the conduct true,/Applause, in spite of trivial faults, is due." (257-258)
Pope basically means that if the work is good overall, it's ok if there are some minor problems. This somewhat contradicts the quote used by adi, though. In that quote, he says that everything needs to be in harmony, everything needs to be perfect and work perfectly together. This quote says that things don't need to be individually perfect, as long as they work together. It's not a total contradiction, but it's a little confusing. I agree with it, though. I think it's ok if a work isn't perfect, as long as the finished product is acceptable and good. - mmi-c Mar 6, 2008
Oh yes yes yes. I have a few snippets myself, but I'll only post one to give others a chance.
"Words are like leaves; and where they most abound,/Much fruit of sense beneath is rarely found."
I like this one a lot. Honestly, when I evaluate myself I cannot help but think of all the worthless things I say and talk about in one day. Really, I think we all talk a little bit too much nonsense every once in a while. However, as Pope later states, having faults or committing errors is part of being human.
Pope also aggravates me. The more I read of the essay the more I dislike him. Still, he is able to throw in some memorable quotes throughout the poem. Grr good writers that know it are annoying aren't they? - PMi-c Mar 6, 2008
I have many random "snippets" that I have enjoyed, but I'd like to focus on the two that MMi and ADi shared. MMi, you said that the two lines appear to contradict each other. Although they appear to at first glance, overall, I don't think they do. Pope seems to do this a lot. Two couplets seem to be saying something completely differnent, but at closer examination, they actually can fit together quite well. It's quite intriguing how he does it, actually.
ADi's line describes the beauty that is formed when many extraordinary or even ordinary pieces come together. I'm not really seeing where you guys interpreted that he most admires the harmony of all the features. I felt that he simply describes the juxtaposition of two objects that results in beauty. I don't feel that this contradicts with MMi's line. This line says that we should praise a good work even if it has slight faults. I think that this is Pope's way of telling us that we cannot expect perfection because that is impossible. Rather, we should look for near-perfect or even just good works. - Kho-c Mar 10, 2008
KHo's post ironically helps to clarify the two couplets that have been discussed, in that she says that Pope is merely saying that the "juxtaposition of two objects that results in beauty." This is what the line is saying, but this also realtes to these two couplets, the two lines in a couplet, and many other couplets in the text. My point of saying this is that this line can be applied to beauty in nature and beauty all around us, but it also can simply be applied to the essay itself. It is very intelligent of Pope to do this, because this line that he wrotes makes perfect sense to anyone, and therefore it makes sense that his essay is also "beautiful." Maybe this is his way of building his reputation up, or of building up the approval but whatever it is, it's ingenious. - ptr-c Mar 10, 2008
Every time I reread parts of this essay, I pick up on something new. It's a good thing, I think, but it makes me feel like I'm clueless; like there is so much I don't know about the play. The first reading I picked up on that section (337-383) where Pope is making the sentence structure and style match the words (making a sentence talking about sentence choppiness sound choppy), but I did not pick up on the beauty aspect ptr pointed out. PMi, you said you didn't want to share more than one snippet because you wanted to give others a chance, which is very considerate, but I feel like there is so much information jam packed in this essay that volumes could be written (and probably have been) about it. I took for granted the fact that it was written in couplets; if it weren't, it would be far too overwhelming!
But to go ahead and share a snippet that caught my eye, "What the weak head with strongest bias rules, is pride, the never-failing vice of fools." Here are three words that Pope has befriended through this essay: bias, pride, and fool. I'm trying to think of a literary work (or even a real-life situation) to which this statement does not apply. Can't. Though Pope is rather proud, however, he is no fool! - KLe-c Mar 10, 2008
I want to just focus on the first two quotes of this topic and how they don't actually contradict each other. Both quotes basically talk about the fact that what makes something beautiful or great is when the whole thing works together to produce beauty. It is not about the eye, or the leg, or the voice, but rather about how it all comes together to make something new happen. The first quote talks about how what makes something great is the fusion of all the elements used to create it. In a song, this means that what makes the song great is the contributions of the the guitars, the drums, the vocals, and the various other instruments working in unison to produce something. Sometimes, there can be minor errors or "mistakes" in some of the elements, but those mistakes don't matter if the overall song remains intact. A drummer might accidentally go off beat for a split second or the guitarist might come in late, but sometimes these mistakes only make the song better by adding drama and variation. These accidents would classically be labeled as mistakes, but without them, the piece would not necessarily be as good. The idea behind the second quote of the topic follows this because it states how people shouldn't be so focused with form that they criticize these mistakes, but they should rather embrace these mistakes for the positive effect that they have. These quotes do seem disimilar at first, but when you break them down, you realize that they are both about looking at the bigger picture instead of excessively focusing on all the little things.- KRi-c Mar 10, 2008
I do like that quote, ADi, and agree with your mention of the parts of a melody fitting together. But when I think about it, I don't really know how I feel about it in application to everything. This is mainly because I often find beauty in disarray. I think there's such a thing as a beautiful disaster, whether it be a situation or (sorry to say) an individual. MMi, as for your quote, "And if the means be just, the conduct true,/Applause, in spite of trivial faults, is due," (257-258) I interpreted it a bit differently. I didn't see it as a work being overall good, but rather the way with which it was obtained. I think it was Immanuel Kant who says, "Don't use another as a means to an end," and I think it relates. You can't use others or wrong others to achieve, so if you do it fairly, that should be applauded. - Sha-c Mar 11, 2008
I liked the snippet about white lies. "'Tis not enough, your counsel still be true;/Blunt truths more mischief than nice falsehoods" (572-573). I remember hearing reading something about it being better to hear a lie that brings a smile than the truth that brings tears. This is true in little things, but not in bigger issues. But as this is an essay on criticism, this also has to do with the way critics go about criticizing something. If critics were to tear a piece apart with true arguments, it's worse than if a critic went nice on the piece even if they had to tell a few white lies along the way. The reason for this is because deep criticism will discourage people from giving the work credit, when in actuality the work may be quite good and have meaning for another person. It all fits into the same idea as the white lies though. It's about letting people get the most out of something without external disturbances. - LDo-c Mar 12, 2008
I am very surprised the following snippet was not already posted:
" 524 Good nature and good sense must ever join;
525 To err is human; to forgive, divine."
This couplet contains truth applicable to anyone at anytime. I have seen this quoted multiple times, but never actually knew the exact source until we, as a class, read this poem. And when I did not know the exact source, I could not make an educated guess as to what kind of text this was from. Certainly, I was surprised to discover that this famous quote was actually from "An Essay on Criticism". Furthermore, though this couplet contains an objective moral truth, it also made me expect to hear an apology near the end of the essay, which I did not. And although I will be divine and forgive Pope for his lack of divine behavior, I would like to take this opportunity to point out that while Pope was a divine writer, he was also human as seen in his hypocrisy. - TMc-c Mar 12, 2008
Pope's lines, 233-236, may actually offer some truth and wisdom for we are to approach this course.
"A perfect judge will read each work of writ
With the same spirit that its author writ,
Survey the whole, nor seek slight flauts to find,
Where nature moves, and rapture warms the mind;"
Although I agree that a "perfect" judge will read literature without preconceived notions, without biases, and without aim to find something to critique, that is much easier said than done. We are human, and to be a perfect judge is next to impossible; of course we are going to form opinions about whether or not a piece of writing is satisfactory in our minds. If maybe we learn to let go a little bit and take things for what they were sometimes, I think we would be a little closer to Pope's definition of a perfect judge. We need to put ourselves in the author's shoes, instead of judging from where we are standing. - AGe-c Mar 13, 2008
I like those lines AGe, a perfect judge would read a piece of literature with the same enthusiasm and way of thougt as the author. A critic must read an entire piece of literature and not look for slight imperfections. I agree that as humans we often judge too soon and form opinions without actually understanding what we have read. I think that while reading a book, we need to understand what a writer is trying to say. Although, it may be different from our way of thought, it doesn't make it wrong or poor writing. - KSm-c Mar 13, 2008
Like you said, ADi, there were many snippets that I underlined throughout the essay; there seemed to be endless witty quotable sayings!
35- There are, who judge still worse than he can write.
~This made me laugh because it is true and completely relevant to life today! There are those who are so critical of work that other people do that they themselves could not do. Then, who are we to judge other people's work when we may not be able to do as equally well?
48 Be your self and your own reach to know
49 How far your genius, taste, and learning go;
50 Launch your beyond your depth, but be discreet,
51 And mark that point where sense and dullness meet.
~I like this because Pope emphasizes how we should know our limits and not bite off more than we can chew. Be sensical, but don't cross the line to a point where your work becomes dull! To me, Pope presents the perfect, logical balance.
Pope's heroic couplets are certainly quotable! - AWr-c Mar 13, 2008
“In wit, as nature, what affects our hearts/is not th’ exactness of peculiar parts;/ ‘Tis not a lip, or eye, we beauty call,/ But the joint force and full result of all.” (243-247)
These lines are so true. For something to be truly beautiful all the parts need to be in harmony. Each individual part; word choice, topic, rhyme, rhythm, may each be pretty on its own, but you need that combination to make a masterpiece. It’s like hearing the perfect song. The instruments, the voices, the lyrics all just seem to mesh.
Could anyone else find any of these snippets in the essay? Snippets where Pope says something you can’t help but agree with or find truth in?
-
Yeah, I definitely found some snippets that I agreed with, in spite of Pope's arrogant nature.
"And if the means be just, the conduct true,/Applause, in spite of trivial faults, is due." (257-258)
Pope basically means that if the work is good overall, it's ok if there are some minor problems. This somewhat contradicts the quote used by adi, though. In that quote, he says that everything needs to be in harmony, everything needs to be perfect and work perfectly together. This quote says that things don't need to be individually perfect, as long as they work together. It's not a total contradiction, but it's a little confusing. I agree with it, though. I think it's ok if a work isn't perfect, as long as the finished product is acceptable and good. -
Oh yes yes yes. I have a few snippets myself, but I'll only post one to give others a chance.
"Words are like leaves; and where they most abound,/Much fruit of sense beneath is rarely found."
I like this one a lot. Honestly, when I evaluate myself I cannot help but think of all the worthless things I say and talk about in one day. Really, I think we all talk a little bit too much nonsense every once in a while. However, as Pope later states, having faults or committing errors is part of being human.
Pope also aggravates me. The more I read of the essay the more I dislike him. Still, he is able to throw in some memorable quotes throughout the poem. Grr good writers that know it are annoying aren't they? -
I have many random "snippets" that I have enjoyed, but I'd like to focus on the two that MMi and ADi shared. MMi, you said that the two lines appear to contradict each other. Although they appear to at first glance, overall, I don't think they do. Pope seems to do this a lot. Two couplets seem to be saying something completely differnent, but at closer examination, they actually can fit together quite well. It's quite intriguing how he does it, actually.
ADi's line describes the beauty that is formed when many extraordinary or even ordinary pieces come together. I'm not really seeing where you guys interpreted that he most admires the harmony of all the features. I felt that he simply describes the juxtaposition of two objects that results in beauty. I don't feel that this contradicts with MMi's line. This line says that we should praise a good work even if it has slight faults. I think that this is Pope's way of telling us that we cannot expect perfection because that is impossible. Rather, we should look for near-perfect or even just good works. -
KHo's post ironically helps to clarify the two couplets that have been discussed, in that she says that Pope is merely saying that the "juxtaposition of two objects that results in beauty." This is what the line is saying, but this also realtes to these two couplets, the two lines in a couplet, and many other couplets in the text. My point of saying this is that this line can be applied to beauty in nature and beauty all around us, but it also can simply be applied to the essay itself. It is very intelligent of Pope to do this, because this line that he wrotes makes perfect sense to anyone, and therefore it makes sense that his essay is also "beautiful." Maybe this is his way of building his reputation up, or of building up the approval but whatever it is, it's ingenious. -
Every time I reread parts of this essay, I pick up on something new. It's a good thing, I think, but it makes me feel like I'm clueless; like there is so much I don't know about the play. The first reading I picked up on that section (337-383) where Pope is making the sentence structure and style match the words (making a sentence talking about sentence choppiness sound choppy), but I did not pick up on the beauty aspect ptr pointed out. PMi, you said you didn't want to share more than one snippet because you wanted to give others a chance, which is very considerate, but I feel like there is so much information jam packed in this essay that volumes could be written (and probably have been) about it. I took for granted the fact that it was written in couplets; if it weren't, it would be far too overwhelming!
But to go ahead and share a snippet that caught my eye, "What the weak head with strongest bias rules, is pride, the never-failing vice of fools." Here are three words that Pope has befriended through this essay: bias, pride, and fool. I'm trying to think of a literary work (or even a real-life situation) to which this statement does not apply. Can't. Though Pope is rather proud, however, he is no fool! -
I want to just focus on the first two quotes of this topic and how they don't actually contradict each other. Both quotes basically talk about the fact that what makes something beautiful or great is when the whole thing works together to produce beauty. It is not about the eye, or the leg, or the voice, but rather about how it all comes together to make something new happen. The first quote talks about how what makes something great is the fusion of all the elements used to create it. In a song, this means that what makes the song great is the contributions of the the guitars, the drums, the vocals, and the various other instruments working in unison to produce something. Sometimes, there can be minor errors or "mistakes" in some of the elements, but those mistakes don't matter if the overall song remains intact. A drummer might accidentally go off beat for a split second or the guitarist might come in late, but sometimes these mistakes only make the song better by adding drama and variation. These accidents would classically be labeled as mistakes, but without them, the piece would not necessarily be as good. The idea behind the second quote of the topic follows this because it states how people shouldn't be so focused with form that they criticize these mistakes, but they should rather embrace these mistakes for the positive effect that they have. These quotes do seem disimilar at first, but when you break them down, you realize that they are both about looking at the bigger picture instead of excessively focusing on all the little things.-
I do like that quote, ADi, and agree with your mention of the parts of a melody fitting together. But when I think about it, I don't really know how I feel about it in application to everything. This is mainly because I often find beauty in disarray. I think there's such a thing as a beautiful disaster, whether it be a situation or (sorry to say) an individual. MMi, as for your quote, "And if the means be just, the conduct true,/Applause, in spite of trivial faults, is due," (257-258) I interpreted it a bit differently. I didn't see it as a work being overall good, but rather the way with which it was obtained. I think it was Immanuel Kant who says, "Don't use another as a means to an end," and I think it relates. You can't use others or wrong others to achieve, so if you do it fairly, that should be applauded. -
I liked the snippet about white lies. "'Tis not enough, your counsel still be true;/Blunt truths more mischief than nice falsehoods" (572-573). I remember hearing reading something about it being better to hear a lie that brings a smile than the truth that brings tears. This is true in little things, but not in bigger issues. But as this is an essay on criticism, this also has to do with the way critics go about criticizing something. If critics were to tear a piece apart with true arguments, it's worse than if a critic went nice on the piece even if they had to tell a few white lies along the way. The reason for this is because deep criticism will discourage people from giving the work credit, when in actuality the work may be quite good and have meaning for another person. It all fits into the same idea as the white lies though. It's about letting people get the most out of something without external disturbances.
-
I am very surprised the following snippet was not already posted:
" 524 Good nature and good sense must ever join;
525 To err is human; to forgive, divine."
This couplet contains truth applicable to anyone at anytime. I have seen this quoted multiple times, but never actually knew the exact source until we, as a class, read this poem. And when I did not know the exact source, I could not make an educated guess as to what kind of text this was from. Certainly, I was surprised to discover that this famous quote was actually from "An Essay on Criticism". Furthermore, though this couplet contains an objective moral truth, it also made me expect to hear an apology near the end of the essay, which I did not. And although I will be divine and forgive Pope for his lack of divine behavior, I would like to take this opportunity to point out that while Pope was a divine writer, he was also human as seen in his hypocrisy. -
Pope's lines, 233-236, may actually offer some truth and wisdom for we are to approach this course.
"A perfect judge will read each work of writ
With the same spirit that its author writ,
Survey the whole, nor seek slight flauts to find,
Where nature moves, and rapture warms the mind;"
Although I agree that a "perfect" judge will read literature without preconceived notions, without biases, and without aim to find something to critique, that is much easier said than done. We are human, and to be a perfect judge is next to impossible; of course we are going to form opinions about whether or not a piece of writing is satisfactory in our minds. If maybe we learn to let go a little bit and take things for what they were sometimes, I think we would be a little closer to Pope's definition of a perfect judge. We need to put ourselves in the author's shoes, instead of judging from where we are standing. -
I like those lines AGe, a perfect judge would read a piece of literature with the same enthusiasm and way of thougt as the author. A critic must read an entire piece of literature and not look for slight imperfections. I agree that as humans we often judge too soon and form opinions without actually understanding what we have read. I think that while reading a book, we need to understand what a writer is trying to say. Although, it may be different from our way of thought, it doesn't make it wrong or poor writing.
-
Like you said, ADi, there were many snippets that I underlined throughout the essay; there seemed to be endless witty quotable sayings!
35- There are, who judge still worse than he can write.
~This made me laugh because it is true and completely relevant to life today! There are those who are so critical of work that other people do that they themselves could not do. Then, who are we to judge other people's work when we may not be able to do as equally well?
48 Be your self and your own reach to know
49 How far your genius, taste, and learning go;
50 Launch your beyond your depth, but be discreet,
51 And mark that point where sense and dullness meet.
~I like this because Pope emphasizes how we should know our limits and not bite off more than we can chew. Be sensical, but don't cross the line to a point where your work becomes dull! To me, Pope presents the perfect, logical balance.
Pope's heroic couplets are certainly quotable! -